“Kill them wherever you come upon them and drive them out of the places from which they have driven you out. For persecution is far worse than killing. And do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they attack you there. If they do so, then fight them—that is the reward of the disbelievers.”
“Fight in the cause of Allah ˹only˺ against those who wage war against you, but do not exceed the limits. Allah does not like transgressors.”
The passage clearly says about defending, in the context war. And do it only against the aggressors. And also not to exceed the limits, which means proportionate response.
It makes sense to fight back. Akin to the Ukrainian defending against Russian invasion.
Could this be interpreted as in any type of war, and not just a defensive war? It doesn’t seem clear to me via the english translation.
2:190 says to fight only against those who wage war against you. So it sounds like defensive war to me.
Could this not also mean the limits interpreted through other passages elsewhere in the Scripture?
So I clicked on the tafsir of this verse by scholars more knowledgeable than me:
"(but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.)
This Ayah means, Fight for the sake of Allah anddonot be transgressors,' such as, by committing prohibitions. Al-Hasan Al-Basri stated that transgression (indicated by the Ayah), "includes mutilating the dead, theft (from the captured goods), killing women, children and old people who do not participate in warfare, killing priests and residents of houses of worship, burning down trees and killing animals without real benefit." This is also the opinion of Ibn Abbas, Umar binAbdul-`Aziz, Muqatil bin Hayyan and others. Muslim recorded in his Sahih that Buraydah narrated.
…
(Fight for the sake of Allah and fight those who disbelieve in Allah. Fight, but do not steal (from the captured goods), commit treachery, mutilate (the dead), or kill a child, or those who reside in houses of worship.)
It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Ibn `Umar said, “A woman was found dead during one of the Prophet’s battles and the Prophet then forbade killing women and children. " There are many other Hadiths on this subject”
So my bad, it’s not talking about proportionate response. But it teaches the limits of how to conduct yourself during such war.
Person from Muslim background here. Let me try to explain. As with all sacred texts, Quran includes many contradicting parts, where other are open to interpretation. Also, Quran was “revealed” as small passages over Muhammad’s life. He claimed to receive messages in the context of the current events. To complicate things even more, standard Quran is not compiled in chronological order.
Passages from early Islam where Muslims were a persecuted minority, the texts are more about peace and harmony. As Muslims increased in numbers and influence, the passages have also turned more aggressive.
For example 2:62 says
Indeed, the believers, Jews, Christians, and Sabians—whoever ˹truly˺ believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good will have their reward with their Lord. And there will be no fear for them, nor will they grieve.
The final ones are indeed about any war, and dominating the space they exist in. Give them ultimatum and then fight until they ask for mercy.
The main message to take here is, by choosing which part to quote, you can make it say anything you want. Sounds familiar?
As someone not from a Muslim background, thank you very much for the clarification and context!
It irks me to no end regardless of the work, how many people will flaunt their supposed literacy and reasoning ability, but even the weakest “reelijun bad” meme will get circulated with little resistance.
It poisons the well against constructive conversation. Thanks for educating. :)
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
Tldr: Quran is interpreted with historic context. You can't apply defensive war verse to offensive war or daily life.
Verses of quran were (according to Islam) told by God to prophet over his life-time on what to do in different events.
For example Quraysh tribe just declared war on muslims? This verse comes out. They agreed a peace deal? Another verse. They continued raiding anyway despite the peace? A new verse, etc.
Historians will publish research on which verse maps to what event and then Imams will use that to chose what to preach and when.
“We got declared war? Do this. We have ceasefire? Do that. They are not followng the ceasefire? Now do these.”
Looking at actual translation at the first one, https://quran.com/al-baqarah/191
“Kill them wherever you come upon them and drive them out of the places from which they have driven you out. For persecution is far worse than killing. And do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque unless they attack you there. If they do so, then fight them—that is the reward of the disbelievers.”
If you read the verse before it, https://quran.com/al-baqarah/190, the Quran talks about it in the context of war.
“Fight in the cause of Allah ˹only˺ against those who wage war against you, but do not exceed the limits. Allah does not like transgressors.”
The passage clearly says about defending, in the context war. And do it only against the aggressors. And also not to exceed the limits, which means proportionate response.
It makes sense to fight back. Akin to the Ukrainian defending against Russian invasion.
Could this be interpreted as in any type of war, and not just a defensive war? It doesn’t seem clear to me via the english translation.
Could this not also mean the limits interpreted through other passages elsewhere in the Scripture?
2:190 says to fight only against those who wage war against you. So it sounds like defensive war to me.
So I clicked on the tafsir of this verse by scholars more knowledgeable than me:
"(but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors.)
This Ayah means,
Fight for the sake of Allah and do not be transgressors,' such as, by committing prohibitions. Al-Hasan Al-Basri stated that transgression (indicated by the Ayah), "includes mutilating the dead, theft (from the captured goods), killing women, children and old people who do not participate in warfare, killing priests and residents of houses of worship, burning down trees and killing animals without real benefit." This is also the opinion of IbnAbbas,Umar binAbdul-`Aziz, Muqatil bin Hayyan and others. Muslim recorded in his Sahih that Buraydah narrated.…
(Fight for the sake of Allah and fight those who disbelieve in Allah. Fight, but do not steal (from the captured goods), commit treachery, mutilate (the dead), or kill a child, or those who reside in houses of worship.)
It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Ibn `Umar said, “A woman was found dead during one of the Prophet’s battles and the Prophet then forbade killing women and children. " There are many other Hadiths on this subject”
So my bad, it’s not talking about proportionate response. But it teaches the limits of how to conduct yourself during such war.
Given the context of when it was written, those seem like admirable limits on an army.
Person from Muslim background here. Let me try to explain. As with all sacred texts, Quran includes many contradicting parts, where other are open to interpretation. Also, Quran was “revealed” as small passages over Muhammad’s life. He claimed to receive messages in the context of the current events. To complicate things even more, standard Quran is not compiled in chronological order.
Passages from early Islam where Muslims were a persecuted minority, the texts are more about peace and harmony. As Muslims increased in numbers and influence, the passages have also turned more aggressive.
For example 2:62 says
The final ones are indeed about any war, and dominating the space they exist in. Give them ultimatum and then fight until they ask for mercy.
The main message to take here is, by choosing which part to quote, you can make it say anything you want. Sounds familiar?
As someone not from a Muslim background, thank you very much for the clarification and context!
It irks me to no end regardless of the work, how many people will flaunt their supposed literacy and reasoning ability, but even the weakest “reelijun bad” meme will get circulated with little resistance.
It poisons the well against constructive conversation. Thanks for educating. :)
—Romans 1:22
Tldr: Quran is interpreted with historic context. You can't apply defensive war verse to offensive war or daily life.
Verses of quran were (according to Islam) told by God to prophet over his life-time on what to do in different events.
For example Quraysh tribe just declared war on muslims? This verse comes out. They agreed a peace deal? Another verse. They continued raiding anyway despite the peace? A new verse, etc.
Historians will publish research on which verse maps to what event and then Imams will use that to chose what to preach and when.
“We got declared war? Do this. We have ceasefire? Do that. They are not followng the ceasefire? Now do these.”